this is what im trying to put together listening to you guys, for i feel the answers to my questions are with you
in science supose it has to work the other way to.
An excerpt from Chapter 1 of Judy Kennedy's book:
Integrating Science and Spirituality
Multidimensional reality is best explained by Ed Witten’s M Theory – a super theory to unify all string theories in modern physics. String theories say that subatomic particles are more like moving strings stretching to form membranes (“branes”) that become worlds or universes of their own. The search is currently underway for a vanishing particle called the graviton, which when found, will shed much light on how travel between these dimensions occurs.[i] Ageless Wisdom or occultism has long known about these different dimensions and calls them “planes ” rather than “branes.” Recent research into what physicists call dark matter reveals more about what scientists don’t know than what they do. It is estimated that current scientific knowledge only applies to about 7% of the universe. The remaining 93% is unknown. Additionally, science tells us that humans do not use their brains to their fullest potential. Yet the brain is not the be all or the end all, but merely an instrument. Occultists are trained to develop and finely tune that instrument, which more often than not obviates dependence on artificial ones. Therefore some of their accomplishments appear to be supernormal feats. In reality, these phenomena, if not already understood, are on the verge of explanation via continuing discoveries in physics and integrative medicine. Until then, they remain “occult” or hidden from view.
Albert Einstein said, “It is possible that there exist human emanations which are unknown to us. Do you remember how electrical current and “unseen waves” were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy.”[ii] To learn about the magic of computers one studies computer science. To learn about the magical workings of the mind, such as telepathy, one studies occultism. These days, however, the lines between legitimized science and occultism are beginning to blur because both approaches to life and problem solving end and begin in the mind – the one field of mind – consciousness. Modern science for the first time is asking the same question occultism has explored for ages: What is the nature of mind?
For centuries, science subjugated pure reason and creative insight to the crippling superstition of absolute objectivity. Quantum physics demonstrated there was no such thing. We cannot observe reality without changing it. As popular author Gary Zukav states, “We cannot eliminate ourselves from the picture. We are a part of nature, and when we study nature, there is no way around the fact that nature is studying itself.”[iii]
One of the most respected and influential philosophers of the 20th century, Ken Wilber, is another pioneer in this area. His works have contributed much toward bridging the boundaries between science and religion. In a similar vein, he writes:
"We have seen that the philosophers of science are in widespread agreement that empirical science depends for its operation upon subjective and intersubjective structures that allow objective knowledge to emerge and stabilize in the first place. Put bluntly, knowledge of sensory exteriors depends upon nonsensory interiors, interiors that are just as real and just as important as the exteriors themselves. You don’t get a message on the telephone, claim the message is real but the phone is illusory. To discredit one is to discredit the other."[iv]
Being objective means being unbiased, having no prejudices – that there’s an “out there” to be observed, totally separate from the observer, right? Well the problem that went unnoticed for three centuries, according to Zukav,
"…is that a person who carries such an attitude certainly is prejudiced. His prejudice is to be “objective,” that is, to be without a preformed opinion. In fact, it is impossible to be without an opinion. An opinion is a point of view. The point of view that we can be without a point of view is a point of view. The decision itself to study one segment of reality instead of another is a subjective expression of the researcher who makes it. It affects his perceptions of reality, if nothing else. Since reality is what we’re studying, the matter gets very sticky here." (Emphasis added.)[v]
As it certainly did when Madame Blavatsky tried to explain this to the public in the inadequate language of her day: “…matter is spirit at the lowest point of its cyclic activity” and “spirit is matter on the seventh plane.”[vi] Or as the ancient Hermetic Axiom puts it, “As above, so below.” And as the great heart sutra goes, the Prajna Paramita of Tibetan Buddhism: “Form is exactly emptiness; emptiness exactly form.” All variations on modern field theory show that particles cannot be separated from the space surrounding them in accordance with this root principle. Fritjof Capra, author of The Tao of Physics, explains,
"The distinction between matter and empty space finally had to be abandoned when it became evident that virtual particles can come into being spontaneously out of the void, and vanish again into the void, without any nucleon or other strongly interacting particle being present… Here then, is the closest parallel to the Void of Eastern Mysticism in modern physics. Like the Eastern Void – the “physical vacuum” – as it is called in field theory – is not a state of mere nothingness, but contains the potentiality for all forms of the particle world. These forms, in turn, are not independent physical entities, but merely transient manifestations of the underlying Void."[vii]
So does this mean that all opposites as we have come to know and love them are not real and serve no purpose in the scheme of things? Not exactly. It just points to the fact that there is something beyond all that – something that operates beyond the bounds of dualistic thinking – beyond the rainbow. Yet it is in the mind where we must realize this truth. As the Tibetan Djwal Khul reminds us in Alice Bailey’s Esoteric Psychology, “It is in the realm of so-called mind that the great principle of separateness is found. It is also in the realm of mind that the great at-one-ment is made.”[viii]
This takes us back to Zukav who quotes Carl Jung: “The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner contradictions, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposite halves.” Wolfgang Pauli, the Nobel prize-winning physicist who was also Jung’s friend, similarly states, “From an inner center, the psyche seems to move outward, in the sense of an extraversion, into the physical world.” Zukav concludes that if these men are correct, “… then physics is the study of consciousness.”[ix]
Now you know why occultism which has always had for its primary subject the study of consciousness has also been called metaphysics. This is where they finally meet. And these days, we have the ridiculous term, “New Age.” This stuff is not “New Age.” This stuff has been around for millenniums. This stuff is Ageless Wisdom. It was with the Druids; it was among early Egyptians. It was taught to Jesus by the Essenes and to the Jews in the form of the Mystical Qabalah. We find it in the shamanistic practices of indigenous peoples all over the world – from the Native American Indian and Australian Aborigine to the ancient Mayans and their unknown ancestors. The Buddha finally found peace in its limitless light, and in sharing its mysteries began the great Eastern lineages that continue to this day. We find its hidden treasure buried deep within the pages of folklore and myth – ancient and contemporary. The sacred story and its secrets are revealed to us in literature and modern movies for those who are receptive to its symbolism.
Still, I prefer the term 'occult’ because even with the advent of scientific confirmation, it remains hidden from the masses in its purer forms. It also alludes that it is more of a science than a faith. This is the difference between the pure occultist and the pure mystic. “When the scientific temperament approaches the Unseen, it chooses the Occult Path of development, and when the artistic temperament approaches the Unseen, it chooses the Mystic Path; one progresses through right knowing, and the other through right feeling, and both meet in the end,” says legendary occultist Dion Fortune in her classic treatise, The Esoteric Orders and Their Work.[x] However, this was more true yesterday than today. As stated previously, since the turn of the 20th century, the trend has been towards integration – balance – like the holistic merging, interdependence and cooperation that results when the hemispheres of the brain are acting in harmony. But what good is that harmony if we don’t do something with it? Therefore in occultism, the emphasis is on practical application of this Ageless Wisdom to make the world a better place for self and others. As Lama Surya Das says, “Reality, after all, is spiritual enough. Spirit is meaningless without being grounded here and now in this plane of existence.”[xi]
Buddhism teaches that wisdom without compassion is just as incomplete as love without truth . This too is acknowledged by Fortune:
"We might speak of the mystic art and the occult science and in so speaking we are reminded that every art is based on a science, and every applied science partakes of the nature of art. The highest development is attained when the mystic has the knowledge and technique of an occultist, or when the occultist is at heart a mystic. The mystic can then express the teaching of the spirit in terms of the intellect and so render them available for those who have no higher consciousness than that of the mind; and the occultist who shares in the things of the spirit will have that element of devotion in his nature which is so often lacking in those in whom the intellect is dominant. Without this element the final synthesis is impossible; he will only be as the exoteric philosopher who follows an ever-receding horizon, because he only studies phenomena by means of the effect they produce on the senses. Noumenal consciousness, which is the ultimate aim of the esotericist, is only possible to those who can actually unite with that which they wish to know… To this all paths lead, and in this all aims find their realization."[xii]
On a similar note, Carl Jung writes: “Science is the art of creating suitable illusions which the fool believes or argues against, but the wise man enjoys for their beauty or their ingenuity, without being blind to the fact that they are human veils and curtains concealing the abysmal darkness of the unknowable.”[xiii] Then why the stigma attached to the occult, other than the fact that in general, most people fear the unknown? Well, as Dion Fortune explains,
"An immense mass of verbiage has gathered around the Sacred Science since Madame Blavatsky drew back the curtain of the sanctuary, and the Theosophical Society sought to popularize the ancient Mystery-teaching . Imagination, freed from the bonds of proof, has had free rein, and scoffers have found ample material that was legitimate game for their comments. The pseudo-occultism of the present day, with its dubious psychism, wild theorizing, and evidence that cannot stand up to the most cursory examination, is but the detritus which accumulates around the base of the Mount of Vision. All such worthless rubbish is not worth the power and shot of argument; in order to form a just estimate of the Sacred Science we must study originals, and try to penetrate the minds of the great mystics… whose works bear evidence of first-hand knowledge of the supersensible worlds."[xiv]
This is why, as all true Gnostics or those who know proclaim, the only real proof of anything comes from the integrity of one’s own experience. We are given the tools and the means by which we realize this Great Work or dharma as it is called in the East – and demonstrate the underlying principles of this Ageless Wisdom in the ordinary trials and tribulations of our everyday lives. This is the only confirmation we need. It works – and that’s all we need to know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i] Brian Greene, The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory, Vintage, 2000.
[ii] Mikol Davis and Earle Lane, Rainbows of Life, Harper Colophon Books, 1978, p. 37.
[iii] Gary Zukav, The Dancing Wu Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics, Bantam Books, 1979, p. 31.
[iv] Ken Wilber, The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion, Random House, 1998, p. 150.
[v] Zukav, p. 30.
[vi] Alice A. Bailey, Esoteric Psychology, Vol. I, Lucis Trust, 1936, p. 17. Reprinted with permission from Lucis Trust Publishing.
[vii] Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics, Bantam Books, 1975, p. 209.
[viii] Bailey, p. 16.
[ix] Zukav, p. 31.
[x] Dion Fortune, The Esoteric Orders and Their Work, 1928, Llewellyn Publications, 1971, p. 138. Reprinted with permission from Red Wheel/Weiser.
[xi] Lama Surya Das, Awakening the Buddha Within, Broadway Books, 1997, p. 233. Reprinted with permission.
[xii] Fortune, p. 139.
[xiii] Davis, p. 45.
[xiv] Dion Fortune, Sane Occultism, Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1967, pp. 7-8. Reprinted with permission from Red Wheel/Weiser.
in science supose it has to work the other way to.
An excerpt from Chapter 1 of Judy Kennedy's book:
Integrating Science and Spirituality
Multidimensional reality is best explained by Ed Witten’s M Theory – a super theory to unify all string theories in modern physics. String theories say that subatomic particles are more like moving strings stretching to form membranes (“branes”) that become worlds or universes of their own. The search is currently underway for a vanishing particle called the graviton, which when found, will shed much light on how travel between these dimensions occurs.[i] Ageless Wisdom or occultism has long known about these different dimensions and calls them “planes ” rather than “branes.” Recent research into what physicists call dark matter reveals more about what scientists don’t know than what they do. It is estimated that current scientific knowledge only applies to about 7% of the universe. The remaining 93% is unknown. Additionally, science tells us that humans do not use their brains to their fullest potential. Yet the brain is not the be all or the end all, but merely an instrument. Occultists are trained to develop and finely tune that instrument, which more often than not obviates dependence on artificial ones. Therefore some of their accomplishments appear to be supernormal feats. In reality, these phenomena, if not already understood, are on the verge of explanation via continuing discoveries in physics and integrative medicine. Until then, they remain “occult” or hidden from view.
Albert Einstein said, “It is possible that there exist human emanations which are unknown to us. Do you remember how electrical current and “unseen waves” were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy.”[ii] To learn about the magic of computers one studies computer science. To learn about the magical workings of the mind, such as telepathy, one studies occultism. These days, however, the lines between legitimized science and occultism are beginning to blur because both approaches to life and problem solving end and begin in the mind – the one field of mind – consciousness. Modern science for the first time is asking the same question occultism has explored for ages: What is the nature of mind?
For centuries, science subjugated pure reason and creative insight to the crippling superstition of absolute objectivity. Quantum physics demonstrated there was no such thing. We cannot observe reality without changing it. As popular author Gary Zukav states, “We cannot eliminate ourselves from the picture. We are a part of nature, and when we study nature, there is no way around the fact that nature is studying itself.”[iii]
One of the most respected and influential philosophers of the 20th century, Ken Wilber, is another pioneer in this area. His works have contributed much toward bridging the boundaries between science and religion. In a similar vein, he writes:
"We have seen that the philosophers of science are in widespread agreement that empirical science depends for its operation upon subjective and intersubjective structures that allow objective knowledge to emerge and stabilize in the first place. Put bluntly, knowledge of sensory exteriors depends upon nonsensory interiors, interiors that are just as real and just as important as the exteriors themselves. You don’t get a message on the telephone, claim the message is real but the phone is illusory. To discredit one is to discredit the other."[iv]
Being objective means being unbiased, having no prejudices – that there’s an “out there” to be observed, totally separate from the observer, right? Well the problem that went unnoticed for three centuries, according to Zukav,
"…is that a person who carries such an attitude certainly is prejudiced. His prejudice is to be “objective,” that is, to be without a preformed opinion. In fact, it is impossible to be without an opinion. An opinion is a point of view. The point of view that we can be without a point of view is a point of view. The decision itself to study one segment of reality instead of another is a subjective expression of the researcher who makes it. It affects his perceptions of reality, if nothing else. Since reality is what we’re studying, the matter gets very sticky here." (Emphasis added.)[v]
As it certainly did when Madame Blavatsky tried to explain this to the public in the inadequate language of her day: “…matter is spirit at the lowest point of its cyclic activity” and “spirit is matter on the seventh plane.”[vi] Or as the ancient Hermetic Axiom puts it, “As above, so below.” And as the great heart sutra goes, the Prajna Paramita of Tibetan Buddhism: “Form is exactly emptiness; emptiness exactly form.” All variations on modern field theory show that particles cannot be separated from the space surrounding them in accordance with this root principle. Fritjof Capra, author of The Tao of Physics, explains,
"The distinction between matter and empty space finally had to be abandoned when it became evident that virtual particles can come into being spontaneously out of the void, and vanish again into the void, without any nucleon or other strongly interacting particle being present… Here then, is the closest parallel to the Void of Eastern Mysticism in modern physics. Like the Eastern Void – the “physical vacuum” – as it is called in field theory – is not a state of mere nothingness, but contains the potentiality for all forms of the particle world. These forms, in turn, are not independent physical entities, but merely transient manifestations of the underlying Void."[vii]
So does this mean that all opposites as we have come to know and love them are not real and serve no purpose in the scheme of things? Not exactly. It just points to the fact that there is something beyond all that – something that operates beyond the bounds of dualistic thinking – beyond the rainbow. Yet it is in the mind where we must realize this truth. As the Tibetan Djwal Khul reminds us in Alice Bailey’s Esoteric Psychology, “It is in the realm of so-called mind that the great principle of separateness is found. It is also in the realm of mind that the great at-one-ment is made.”[viii]
This takes us back to Zukav who quotes Carl Jung: “The psychological rule says that when an inner situation is not made conscious, it happens outside, as fate. That is to say, when the individual remains undivided and does not become conscious of his inner contradictions, the world must perforce act out the conflict and be torn into opposite halves.” Wolfgang Pauli, the Nobel prize-winning physicist who was also Jung’s friend, similarly states, “From an inner center, the psyche seems to move outward, in the sense of an extraversion, into the physical world.” Zukav concludes that if these men are correct, “… then physics is the study of consciousness.”[ix]
Now you know why occultism which has always had for its primary subject the study of consciousness has also been called metaphysics. This is where they finally meet. And these days, we have the ridiculous term, “New Age.” This stuff is not “New Age.” This stuff has been around for millenniums. This stuff is Ageless Wisdom. It was with the Druids; it was among early Egyptians. It was taught to Jesus by the Essenes and to the Jews in the form of the Mystical Qabalah. We find it in the shamanistic practices of indigenous peoples all over the world – from the Native American Indian and Australian Aborigine to the ancient Mayans and their unknown ancestors. The Buddha finally found peace in its limitless light, and in sharing its mysteries began the great Eastern lineages that continue to this day. We find its hidden treasure buried deep within the pages of folklore and myth – ancient and contemporary. The sacred story and its secrets are revealed to us in literature and modern movies for those who are receptive to its symbolism.
Still, I prefer the term 'occult’ because even with the advent of scientific confirmation, it remains hidden from the masses in its purer forms. It also alludes that it is more of a science than a faith. This is the difference between the pure occultist and the pure mystic. “When the scientific temperament approaches the Unseen, it chooses the Occult Path of development, and when the artistic temperament approaches the Unseen, it chooses the Mystic Path; one progresses through right knowing, and the other through right feeling, and both meet in the end,” says legendary occultist Dion Fortune in her classic treatise, The Esoteric Orders and Their Work.[x] However, this was more true yesterday than today. As stated previously, since the turn of the 20th century, the trend has been towards integration – balance – like the holistic merging, interdependence and cooperation that results when the hemispheres of the brain are acting in harmony. But what good is that harmony if we don’t do something with it? Therefore in occultism, the emphasis is on practical application of this Ageless Wisdom to make the world a better place for self and others. As Lama Surya Das says, “Reality, after all, is spiritual enough. Spirit is meaningless without being grounded here and now in this plane of existence.”[xi]
Buddhism teaches that wisdom without compassion is just as incomplete as love without truth . This too is acknowledged by Fortune:
"We might speak of the mystic art and the occult science and in so speaking we are reminded that every art is based on a science, and every applied science partakes of the nature of art. The highest development is attained when the mystic has the knowledge and technique of an occultist, or when the occultist is at heart a mystic. The mystic can then express the teaching of the spirit in terms of the intellect and so render them available for those who have no higher consciousness than that of the mind; and the occultist who shares in the things of the spirit will have that element of devotion in his nature which is so often lacking in those in whom the intellect is dominant. Without this element the final synthesis is impossible; he will only be as the exoteric philosopher who follows an ever-receding horizon, because he only studies phenomena by means of the effect they produce on the senses. Noumenal consciousness, which is the ultimate aim of the esotericist, is only possible to those who can actually unite with that which they wish to know… To this all paths lead, and in this all aims find their realization."[xii]
On a similar note, Carl Jung writes: “Science is the art of creating suitable illusions which the fool believes or argues against, but the wise man enjoys for their beauty or their ingenuity, without being blind to the fact that they are human veils and curtains concealing the abysmal darkness of the unknowable.”[xiii] Then why the stigma attached to the occult, other than the fact that in general, most people fear the unknown? Well, as Dion Fortune explains,
"An immense mass of verbiage has gathered around the Sacred Science since Madame Blavatsky drew back the curtain of the sanctuary, and the Theosophical Society sought to popularize the ancient Mystery-teaching . Imagination, freed from the bonds of proof, has had free rein, and scoffers have found ample material that was legitimate game for their comments. The pseudo-occultism of the present day, with its dubious psychism, wild theorizing, and evidence that cannot stand up to the most cursory examination, is but the detritus which accumulates around the base of the Mount of Vision. All such worthless rubbish is not worth the power and shot of argument; in order to form a just estimate of the Sacred Science we must study originals, and try to penetrate the minds of the great mystics… whose works bear evidence of first-hand knowledge of the supersensible worlds."[xiv]
This is why, as all true Gnostics or those who know proclaim, the only real proof of anything comes from the integrity of one’s own experience. We are given the tools and the means by which we realize this Great Work or dharma as it is called in the East – and demonstrate the underlying principles of this Ageless Wisdom in the ordinary trials and tribulations of our everyday lives. This is the only confirmation we need. It works – and that’s all we need to know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i] Brian Greene, The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory, Vintage, 2000.
[ii] Mikol Davis and Earle Lane, Rainbows of Life, Harper Colophon Books, 1978, p. 37.
[iii] Gary Zukav, The Dancing Wu Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics, Bantam Books, 1979, p. 31.
[iv] Ken Wilber, The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion, Random House, 1998, p. 150.
[v] Zukav, p. 30.
[vi] Alice A. Bailey, Esoteric Psychology, Vol. I, Lucis Trust, 1936, p. 17. Reprinted with permission from Lucis Trust Publishing.
[vii] Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics, Bantam Books, 1975, p. 209.
[viii] Bailey, p. 16.
[ix] Zukav, p. 31.
[x] Dion Fortune, The Esoteric Orders and Their Work, 1928, Llewellyn Publications, 1971, p. 138. Reprinted with permission from Red Wheel/Weiser.
[xi] Lama Surya Das, Awakening the Buddha Within, Broadway Books, 1997, p. 233. Reprinted with permission.
[xii] Fortune, p. 139.
[xiii] Davis, p. 45.
[xiv] Dion Fortune, Sane Occultism, Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1967, pp. 7-8. Reprinted with permission from Red Wheel/Weiser.
posted by:
|
Australia
|
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 8:08 PMWendy
For me, I do not want to integrate my science and spirituality.
For me, science is about evidence and getting a grasp of the physical reality.
Fro me, spirituality is about experience and intuition.
I would not want to judge my spirituality by evidence or reality without evidence.
My science and spirituality are parts of me that do not follow the same rules.
That is OK with me. I do not need them to be the same. They are not. -
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 8:50 PMWell said, Curry.
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 9:47 AM*applause*
not all elements of human experience need to be measured by the same yardstick
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 5:09 PMYou CAN allow the apparent polarities to blend 100%
no need to fear losing anything through trust in instinct in all aspects of life.
no need to fear losing anything through trust in intellect in all aspects of life. -
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 7:31 PMWere you replying to me, Nick?
...
No you can't. Also, you CAN'T state something without immediately providing the proof/basis for your statement - THAT is what science is all about; however, the majority can't seem to understand that, or, correction, does not WANT to understand that because it involves years of hard and excruciating personal and intellectual labor and sacrifices for which one has to have guts, much rather more easy to passively float on the stream like a turd, and mentally puke on the topics of fundamentality of Life and the Universe.
THAT is why we, those who have gone the way, with that, earn the right to have the sense of accomplishment and pride for what we have done..
My dear friend, I have been through such shit, before I was even 30, that the overwhelming majority of the people would simply come to a river, look at the sky, and silently walk into the water, or simply, step off a bridge, if they only "smelled the shadow" of that, if you know what I mean, not to mention peeked with one eye; and all that, if they first do not end up in a madhouse, poking a finger in the nose and rocking from side to side.
Fear is just a word for you, my son. Beg and cry, cry and beg your Life, to never ever let you taste what the meaning of it actually is.
...
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 9:18 PMmellow man... we all have stories to tell... I doubt anyone meant any disrepect...
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Sat, August 23, 2008 - 6:33 AM"Were you replying to me, Nick? "
No.
"Also, you CAN'T state something without immediately providing the proof/basis for your statement"
I just did.
Prove I exist.
-
-
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 10:52 AMAll physical theories of a 5+ dimensional universe are currently just speculation. Yes, it is informed speculation but still speculation without evidence. Far to often people are taking this speculation (the various string theories, plus the various other theories) as truth, this is becuase people have vested interests in such theories that have nothing to do with science (most professionals have spent their careers prosuing one of these theories and it is hard for people's egos to admit that their life's work was for nothing). What I'm getting at is that one should be skeptical about such things.
On issues of a spiritual nature, science says nothing unless the issue has a physically measurable effect. For example, telekenesis (moving things with the mind) is an issue science can address, one for which no reliable supporting evidence has been observed. The existance of "the astral plane" or spirit world is beyond science as it has no physically measurable effects. For issues beyond science one has to turn to one's faith - something one believes in or doesn't and which is not amendable to rational argument.
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 12:22 PM"Religion and Science"
(The following excerpt was published in "The World as I See It" by Albert Einstein, (1999))
by Albert Einstein
Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and desire are the motive forces behind all human endeavor and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present itself to us. Now what are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious thought and belief in the widest sense of the words? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions—fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connexions is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates for itself more or less analogous beings on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. One's object now is to secure the favour of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make them well disposed towards a mortal.
I am speaking now of the religion of fear. This, though not created, is in an important degree stabilized by the formation of a special priestly caste which sets up as a mediator between the people and the beings they fear, and erects a hegemony on this basis. In many cases the leader or ruler whose position depends on other factors, or a privileged class, combines priestly functions with its secular authority in order to make the latter more secure; or the political rulers and the priestly caste make common cause in their own interests.
The social feelings are another source of the crystallization of religion. Fathers and mothers and the leaders of larger human communities are mortal and fallible. The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes, the God who, according to the width of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even life as such, the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing, who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.
The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, which is continued in the New Testament. The religions of all civilized peoples, especially the peoples of the Orient, are primarily moral religions. The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in a nation's life. That primitive religions are based entirely on fear and the religions of civilized peoples purely on morality is a prejudice against which we must be on our guard. The truth is that they are all intermediate types, with this reservation, that on the higher levels of social life the religion of morality predominates.
Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. Only individuals of exceptional endowments and exceptionally high-minded communities, as a general rule, get in any real sense beyond this level. But there is a third state of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form, and which I will call cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to explain this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.
The individual feels the nothingness of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. He looks upon individual existence as a sort of prison and wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear in earlier stages of development—e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learnt from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer especially, contains a much stronger element of it.
The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no Church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with the highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as Atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.
How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are capable of it. We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events—that is, if he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it goes through. Hence science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and punishment and hope of reward after death.
It is therefore easy to see why the Churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees. On the other hand, I maintain that cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest incitement to scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion which pioneer work in theoretical science demands, can grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labour in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics!
Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to those like-minded with themselves, scattered through the earth and the centuries. Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man strength of this sort. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.
You will hardly and one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man. For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.
But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages.
( Albert Einstein, The World as I See It, Secaucus, New Jersey: The Citadel Press, 1999, pp. 24-29. )
From: www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/e...on.html
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 5:32 PMThanks for sharing Serge...read most of it..in between menial tasks...
xxx wendy -
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 7:57 PM<<...read most of it..>>
THAT's where the Key lies.
You were supposed to read it all, and then, spent some time in silent contemplation and absorption of the message. THIS is what is bringing back to zero your EVERY single attempt to understand and to learn - ANYthing, in your life. THAT is why you are "lucky if [you] understand the manual of [your] cell phone".
You did not have to thank me or express any sort of appreciation and/or gratitude, (I didn't do it for *you* in particular; though, for you too, of course). In fact, you (unwillingly) destroyed the whole Energy that that message had brought with itself - yes, by posting this meaningless reply, you denied a moment of silence and realization to so many; and that has been infinitely amplified by the fact that it is online and accessible to the whole planet, because everyone who will read that will, automatically, keep going (by pure inertia) to the next posting, which is yours and that will, "nicely", scoop ev-v-vry single bit of energy they had gained for that personal moment of truth, or a silent realization of something very important in their lives (whatever that may be), or a quiet moment of peace, that it carries within itself.
You see, that is how much damage can cause a vain talking.
....
Truly, the wisdom of "Silence is Golden" came throughout the eons to us, to help us understand that only in silence we can hear the voice of Wisdom (or, one can read: The Universe, if it is his source).
"If You have nothing to say, Don't Say Anything" - English proverb.
P.S. Folks, yes, everyone on tribe. It is a very good opportunity for us all to learn HOW to read. To read ANYthing, from a book, to an ad, from an article to a posting, like the ones we have here, on tribe.
If you are going through something, some text, for example, and you feel the depth of the message it is giving to you (whatever that message is about), after you finish reading it, the part - stop, do not jump immediately to the next reply, for you do not know what THAT carries within itself. Reflect, do not think in the "mental diarrhea" way what it might or might not mean. Do not *force* the answer, or a conclusion, to something just because you really, really want it "right now" and not a second later. Let this energy do its work. The answer will come out on its own, Trust Me - Inside, You Know it, you just never let it do its job, that's all. You want your answer right now, on the spot and not a second later - THIS is what's fracking you up in your quests for knowledge and answers in your lives. CONTAIN THE MOMENT AND THE FEELING IT BRINGS WITH IT, by not rushing right away to the next emptiness that will deprive you of what you've just gained, sometimes with so much effort. If you feel like you can't resist the temptation, then turn off your computer with one swift move - hit the "Reset" button, next to the "ON", if you feel a little weak right now to resist it and run to the kitchen, for example. Trust me, there are many, many tricks you can trick your "demons" with and get a hand over them, you just have to be a little creative, that's all.
Remember? - Caesar's to Caesar, God's to God. You CANNOT, and never will, understand spiritual with physical - it is a combination of both, just like the Spacetime. This is why you have all these never-ending debates over this and that, these and those - YOU CANNOT USE SCISSORS FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. No... you can't... Still No... you can't...; but, this is what you've been doing for centuries already and still doing, right now (since the original Knowledge, and meaning of it, had been lost long long time ago).
....
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 8:23 AMSerge, It seem that you were in a bad mood at 757 on Wednesday. :))))))))))))) -
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 8:42 AMmassivest ditto curry........
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 3:07 PMWhatever made you think so, Curry.
But now, with this, you have burried even that little what was left of it.
Thank You.
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 9:33 PMIn the end, faith is not quantifiable... -
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 9:58 PM... plus, we are heavily OT-ing here.
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Fri, August 22, 2008 - 10:30 PMwhat does OT-ing mean?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Sat, August 23, 2008 - 9:17 AMWhat's the point in trying to integrate science and spirituality? They are different paths to different ends.
Science is a method for constructing a conceptual model of physical reality based on observation and measurement -- components of the model must be consistent, verifiable, and subject to revision. The ultimate aim of science is prediction and control of events in physical reality.
Spirituality constructs an alternative model of reality beyond the physical, relying more on faith and intuition rather than reason and logic. Its ultimate aim would seem to be control over one's states of experience.
What would it mean to integrate the two? That would be like integrating mathematics and poetry -- which sounds to me about as appealing as chocolate on sardines.
-
Re: Integrating science and spirituality
Thu, August 28, 2008 - 12:41 AMHere is a good film integrating quantum science and spirituality, as well as what prevents us from seeing the connections between all things
video.google.com/videoplay
